Wise words and an admission...

[purplecthulhu]

I found these wise words on fjm's LJ:

if someone who appears to you to be outgoing, tells you that they are shy, believe them. What you are seeing is their performance face, their coping mechanisms. It may come over as arrogance, be expressed as sarcasm, be over ebullient, or talking too much. It may exhaust them so much that they can't think too straight about the reality of a situation while they are "performing". It may not be a good coping mechanism. But it is not proof that they have lied about their shyness.

[Quoted with permission]

Having said that, I have an admission to make...

I am shy.

Bear fjm's insightful words in mind in this context.

Comments

[crazysoph.livejournal.com]

That would also work for admitting depression, as I've been experimenting with in ever-larger circles.

Well-spotted, well-shared, that quote. Thanks to you and fjm.

Crazy(but always appreciating a good insight!)Soph

PS so there on the "exhaust them so much..." line.

[cdave]

I used to be a shy teenager, then decided not to be, and for a while that was exactly a description of me.

I've settled into extroversion quite thoroughly these days. To the point where I often realise that while I may know everyone in the room, I've never had a serious conversation with any of them.

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

I often realise that while I may know everyone in the room, I've never had a serious conversation with any of them

Is that extroversion or just having an extrovert mask? For me I think it would probably be the latter...

[cdave]

I'm not sure.

One of those silly oversimplified personality tests I did as kid has a characteristic of introversion and extroversion as the number of friends you had.

An extrovert would have a large number of friends, but know a lot about them. Whereas an introvert would have a small number of friends but be closer to them.

Now-a-days I don't have any issues with talking to people I don't know well, so at something like Plokta.con, I would ask sit down to eat with people who I often didn't know the badge name of, but recognised from around. This meant I got to spend a little time with a lot of people. But contrarywise I didn't spend a lot of time getting to know any individuals. Thinking back on it now I can't recall having any one to one conversations, they were always part of groups.

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

This is what's wrong wih every discussion on this meme I've seen and I've seen a lot.
Introversion and extroversion are not genetic characteristics. They are characteristics of how we are brought up and how we respond to differing environments. I was a very quiet , pretty friendless teenager ; I met fandom when i was 18 and suddenly became known as a giggly social buterfly. However despite this I was eg too shy to wear a mini skirt when asked to appear in a Star Trek musical - and too shy to tell people why.

People think I'm highly extrovert because i act confident and gregarious. Am I am extrovert or the introvert I was wearing a mask? Does it matter? These are all constructions. I am however a little tired of people who are "shy" or "introvert" being given special privilege , as if they were somehow more fragile than clodhopping extroverts.

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

I don't think anything here asks for special privilege, just recognition, which is why I made the original post. Now people might understand when I slope off to my room at a Con in just the same way I understand my extrovert friends when they barge into an ongoing conversation.

Not privilege, understanding.

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

Extroverts might also like some understanding eg that when we talk a lot and perhaps a little loudly , we are not intending to invade personal space, trample on people's personalities, or think we are always right? It does cut both ways.

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

ps sorry I replied too quickly and I see you do mention that. But if you do, I think you are pretty rare in fandom. (And indeed I think of you as a very easy and pOlite person to talk to:)

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

:-) There you go - being all extrovert and not reading to the end :-))))))

I try to take people as they are and not as I might like them to be, warts and all. Part of this is not ascribing malice to what I might take as inconvenient or impolite behaviour - after all I've been on the other side of that equation many times!

Of course this can create problems when I don't get past the 'masks' or when something is going on under the surface that I am completely oblivious to, even though it might be obvious to others. This means I often need to be hit with a very large clue stick when it's time for something outside the accepted social norms of a given situation.

It's also true that others might not get past my 'mask', and think I'm actually extrovert a lot of the time, which i think gets us back to where this thread started...

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

The not reading to end may have something to do with fact I am this second sending most a finshed book to publisher so maybe I get an exeat just this time? :))

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

Maybe even a plenary indulgence!

[fjm.livejournal.com]

How do you feel afterwards?

I did the same as you, but I sleep the day after a convention, and after I did four in a row, I had to ask chilperic to leave for a couple of days. If I attempted a conversation, I burst into tears.

[cdave]

These days I tend to come away from conversations with strangers on a bit of a high. It energises me. Usually in place where you society allows you to be sociable like a con, or a friends party. But occasionally on public transport too. There is a mental barrier to overcome to approach a group, but mostly it just gives me moments pause, with no lasting impact.

I'm trying to recall what it was like when I first started doing this.

I think that as my attitude was that I'd just pretend I was comfortable enough to say and do the outrageous things I'd do with my friends, and that anyone who didn't like that wasn't worth my respect it required less energy than worrying about what people think about me. Your basic class clown syndrome.

This does mean that since I have a cultivated attitude that most of the time I don't care what people think about my behaviour, as it's their problem, I do get hit really bad if I make a gaffe that I know is my fault.

In the middle of a silly conversation I made a light comment about a fairly serious matter that I'd been involved in at a party once. Later someone took me to one side and told me that it had upset them a lot. For which I apologised profusely, knowing that I had been completely out of order, and we made up a few days later. I spent a long time feeling really shitty about that. Still do when I think about it, but I couldn't really keep it out of my head for a while.

And I inadvertently insulted someone at a BSFA reading once (not saying who or how) and I have no idea if they still recall it, but each I see them I have a small internal panic.

[fjm.livejournal.com]

Just clear the air with the BSFA person,. In reality, they'll probably look at you and wonder what the hell you are talking about.

Yes, you meet the Myers-Briggs definition of Extrovert. I most definitely don't.

[cdave]

"Yes, you meet the Myers-Briggs definition of Extrovert."

I do now. I score more strongly on the E catagory than any of the others when I do online tests. I wonder if the shy teenage me met the critearia for an M-B Introvert.

"I most definitely don't."

In which case I feel even more grateful to you for making me feel so welcome three years ago when I first started going to the BSFA interviews.

[fjm.livejournal.com]

My pleasure. But to go back, the outgoingness is an act, and I can sometimes seem very vague when I am just a bit overwhelmed by people.

[cdave]

Thanks for the pointer. It's a good thing for me to try and remember when I'm trying to drag friends along to things where they don't know anyone.

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

Yep you're me. You're supposed to be a natural extrovert if you get energised by conversations etc. Again I wonder what the 13 year old me was.

[purpletigron.livejournal.com]

I was a shy pre-teen, and then around 13 I decided not to be. I'm now Exxx on Myers-Briggs.

[cthulie.livejournal.com]

Yes, and also this, from the same post,

"there is a hierarchy in inter-actions which means someone who is well known to a group is facing a room full of strangers. You may see them as a celebrity. They see themselves as someone desperate for a familiar face."

is right to the point. I get it a lot in band-related contexts, where people think I'm being stand-offish, and I'm panicking because I'm in a room full of people I don't know.

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

Giving talks and lectures has a useful distancing effect between speaker and audience and you're almost expected to be a bit distant during the preparation. Afterwards people from the audience take the lead in asking questions, which is quite helpful. Lecturing a room full of students might be a bit different - I hope the mask doesn't slip...

[surliminal.livejournal.com]

Lecturing large halls of students is e-asy - you're removed, they might as well be a mile away (usually). It's small group seminars I find incredibly tiring - like trying to run a cocktail party for a group of almost strangers while trying to teach at same time.

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

Yes - 30 is much the same as 300, and I have done both in the past. I've not done the small group thing yet - that's a pleasure for next year, and not one I'm necessarily looking forward to.

[sammywol.livejournal.com]

Me too!

[klwilliams.livejournal.com]

Me, too. My job requires frequent contact with other people, including customers. I generally spend my evenings at home alone, being quiet.

[jongibbs.livejournal.com]

Me too. I was married and in my twenties before I oould ask the driver if I was on the right bus. People who know me now will tell you I got over it, but I'm still shy, I just hide it well.

[molly-brown.livejournal.com]

Scratch most apparent extroverts and you'll find an over-compensating introvert beneath. I've always been on the shy side (which is why my mouth can be usually be found flapping non-stop).

I guess that's *me* out of the closet. ;)