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purplecthulhu: (cycliong)
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Cycling Diary: Supplemental

posted by [personal profile] purplecthulhu at 10:23am on 01/08/2007
Is there something big going on at the appeal court on Newgate Street today?

As I cycled past it this morning there was a much heavier police presence than usual, including stromtrooper-types armed with G36 assault rifles. There were also vans with reinforcements parked around the corner.

Is there a big trial on, or are they just acting like headless chickens because the inevitable accident - a car bashed by a prisoner lorry turning into it (as nearly happened to me a few week ago) has finally happened? (An MPV with crushed right wing and flat right front tire was also blocking the cycle path.)

There was a film crew in evidence so I suspect it wasn't just the accident, but who knows. Anyone willing to bet they'll improve the access arrangements after this incident?

I've made my feelings known on the police G36s before, but I've now checked and can confirm that they use 5.56x45mm NATO assault rifle rounds rather than the less penetrating 9x19mm parabellum of the good old MP5s. I'd really like to know what precautions, if any, they're taking to prevent collateral damage to innocent bystanders when one of these things is eventually used in anger.
Mood:: 'curious' curious
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There are 21 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
timill: (Default)

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posted by [personal profile] timill at 10:18am on 01/08/2007
Precautions? They're trained for accuracy, like Imperial stormtroopers...
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posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 11:01am on 01/08/2007
Indeed... IIRC there were 20 shots fired at point blank range at Jean Charles de Menezes, and only 7 hit...
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posted by [identity profile] xnamkrad.livejournal.com at 06:25pm on 01/08/2007
There was an attempted robbery at a Post Office in north Dublin last year. The gang was told to drop their guns and surrender. They didn't - result, two shots from two Garda marksmen and two dead bad guys. That's accuracy.
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posted by [identity profile] major-clanger.livejournal.com at 10:31am on 01/08/2007
The problem with 9x19 parabellum round is that it is inaccurate as well as having limited stopping power. The MP5 has something of an overblown reputation - yes, at short range it can put down a lot of lead but it is not the sort of weapon you would want to use where there was much danger of hitting bystanders.

5.56x45 NATO is very accurate (well, as accurate as the weapon and shooter) and has more stopping power than 9mm, but is not so penetrating that it will go right through someone, or even a wall. The old 7.62x51 NATO was infamous for its capacity to go right through a house!

When I had the MoD Police working for me they were looking at moving from the MP5 to the MP7, which uses 4.6x30, a relatively new round designed to get around this sort of issue.
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ext_58972: Mad! (Default)

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posted by [identity profile] autopope.livejournal.com at 11:01am on 01/08/2007
I'd assume the police G36s are set up for single shot or two-round burst only.

I'll start to worry if you tell me that they've got trigger mechanisms with full auto selectable. (Does fully automatic fire have any conceivable role in police firearms usage, at least as conceived of in the British Isles?)
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posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 11:07am on 01/08/2007
I imagine full automatic would be very good at riot suppression, as long as you can arrange a sympathetic ear at the IPCC afterwards...
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posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 11:04am on 01/08/2007
In a military environment I'd expect accuracy at range to be a concern, but I'd be very surprised if any police firearms use takes place on ranges of more than 100 feet without calling on specialists with sniper rifles. But I may be wrong on this.

The first time I saw G36 deployed was at Brighton railway station the week before a party conference. I'm guessing that while NATO 5.56mm rounds might not be able to go through a house, they could quite happily go through a train...
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posted by [identity profile] paganbirch.livejournal.com at 11:15am on 01/08/2007
we were always told the story of the round of 7.62 that went through several walls (hence a couple of houses) when shot at the gable end of a street in Belfast.

Having seen the penetrating power of these rounds I'm not that convinced that this is an urban legend!
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posted by [identity profile] secretlondon.livejournal.com at 11:01am on 01/08/2007
There's the BAA Heathrow injunction thing at the High Court. Is that the same building? *clueless*
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posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 11:02am on 01/08/2007
I don't think so... If it is I'd be very worried that they have heavily armed police to guard against members of the National Trust!
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timill: (Default)

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posted by [personal profile] timill at 11:04am on 01/08/2007
They've probably heard that the NT has lots of armour available...
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posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 11:05am on 01/08/2007
Hmmm - just how effective is chain and plate against modern firearms. Charlie should know this from research for the Merchant Princes books!
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posted by [identity profile] paganbirch.livejournal.com at 11:18am on 01/08/2007
actually plate is remarkable resiliant(sp?) to modern fire arms. There si a pub near Snadhurst that has it's own range out back (can't remember the details) It has an old plate mail set of armour that peope can shoot at for a donation to charity. When I saw it (admittedly a few years back now) even the magnum 45 hadn't shot through it. (serious dent and cracked the metal; but it stopped the bullet). There were two very neat holes in it though where omebody had shot at it with a longbow.
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posted by [identity profile] paganbirch.livejournal.com at 11:18am on 01/08/2007
sorry for the typos....
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posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 11:19am on 01/08/2007
Longbows with bodkin tips do very well. I saw this tried on some old car doors a while back.
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posted by [identity profile] a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com at 11:31am on 01/08/2007
*laughs because no one actually answered the question about the trial*
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posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 11:39am on 01/08/2007
It's LJ - what do you expect?

(although in fairness there have been some suggestions)
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posted by [identity profile] a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com at 07:49pm on 01/08/2007
Good point! It *was* slightly like an immediate testosterone injection, though ...

Of course, I know people who were surprised (and who weren't) that my B-i-L (ex) and nephew hooked me into playing Counterstrike with them many nights while I was in London. Apparently they don't know many women good at that sort of thing. Hmph. I don't *think* I have high testosterone levels ;-)
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liadnan: (Default)

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posted by [personal profile] liadnan at 01:15pm on 01/08/2007
You mean the Old Bailey? (Though it's not an appeal court.) This (the Securitas armed robbery) is being tried there at the moment.
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posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 01:18pm on 01/08/2007
Yes! I think you might have it there. I thought it was the Appeal Court, but checking with multimap reveals that it is in fact the back entrance of the Old Bailey.

Problem solved, I think!
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liadnan: (Default)

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posted by [personal profile] liadnan at 01:20pm on 01/08/2007
Criminal Appeals, like civil ones, are usually held in the RCJ. The Bailey gets most high profile criminal cases, though terrorism ones and other things needing paranoid levels of super-heavy security are now more usually done in the court inside Belmarsh.
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