purplecthulhu: (anti-bush)
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posted by [personal profile] purplecthulhu at 08:54am on 12/06/2008
Can't say I'm surprised by the company Brown gladly keeps to sell some more of our civil liberties down the river, but it just re-emphasises how morally bankrupt New Labour has become.

I'm sure those NL apologists among you will explain how wrong I am and how necessary it is that they stay in government because any alternative will be So Much Worse. There must be so much rose tint on their spectacles by now that you're nearly blind.

Once more I'm glad the Lords is filled with people who are beholden to no party for their continued presence there and so can toss this crock of shit back to the commons with reasoned debate as often as they can.

ETA: I'm also wondering whether Ann Widdecombe will have the conservative whip withdrawn from her after backing Brown on this.
Mood:: 'angry' angry
There are 9 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] sammywol.livejournal.com at 08:03am on 12/06/2008
Doesn't it feel very odd to be grateful for the House of Lords? What a mess? OK the DUP might not be as ghastly in practice as they once were, but then theirs is a pretty low nadir to climb back from. I hope Brown pays up on his end of the deal even after the Bill goes west in the Lords. Iron dumbass!
 
posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 08:30am on 12/06/2008
There are a lot of things I like the Lords for. At some level I think an appointed revision house is better than an elected one. They have no real power as the Commons can always force something through, so it's not as if unelected people get to run the country. However they're not beholden to electorate or party and so can say what they think is right without fear or favour.

Getting rid of the hereditories was right. I have significant doubts about it going elected. A model similar to the Canadian Senate might in fact be better and the current Lords is close to that.
 
posted by [identity profile] makyo.livejournal.com at 09:23am on 12/06/2008
The Lords is in general a Good Thing. The presence of several hundred hereditary peers was, and had been for some time, unjustifiable and untenable. But I don't really have a problem with retaining a relatively small number, as at present, because that way you get rid of the 'backwoodsmen' who were the real problem, and still get to keep the ones who, despite an accident of birth, actually have something to contribute and/or represent interests that would otherwise not have a voice.

I also don't really mind the presence of the 26 most senior bishops, because although I'm not a Christian myself, I recognise that a fair number of people in this country are (or at least think they are) and it's good to have their interests represented, although 26 is probably a bit high. However, this does rather open the doors for allowing lots of other religions (some more bonkers and objectionable than others) formal representation, so it's probably safer just to get rid of the lot - which doesn't rule out the possibility of appointing a few suitably-chosen representatives, of course.

So I wouldn't object particularly if either the bishops or the remaining hereditary peers were removed from the House. The removal of the bishops would, incidentally, complete a reform started by Henry VIII when (during the Dissolution of the Monasteries) the rest of the Lords Spiritual (namely the abbots and priors) were removed.

However, as someone who is not now, has never been, nor can currently envisage being a member of any political party, and who actually regards the current party-based system a subversion of the democratic process, I really do want the crossbench expert peers to stay, and I don't see how this can be achieved if the House is elected.

In fact, I'd prefer it if the party-political element in the Lords was drastically reduced - perhaps by delegating the selection process to the independent appointments commission, except perhaps for a few (but only a few) people every year who could be nominated by the party leaders in the Commons. I'd like membership to be for life (or at least, as in Canada, until some suitable upper age like 75 or so) not for a fixed term, and I don't want there to be any maximum limit on the number of members (although the current size is probably about right).

Appointment to the House should be on merit, not patronage, and should be vetted by the appointments commission, who should have the question "are these people more suitable and eminent than anyone else who's available at the moment?" at the forefront of their minds. Every appointment should be able to withstand objective scrutiny: "Why did you appoint Martin Rees?" "Because he's President of the Royal Society and one of the most eminent astrophysicists in the country, and we need some top scientists involved in the legislation process" "Good answer". "Why did you appoint Charles Falconer?" "Because he's an old flatmate of Tony Blair and we thought it'd be a wheeze" "Not good enough".
 
posted by [identity profile] miss-s-b.livejournal.com at 10:16am on 12/06/2008
IAWTC, and I AM a member of a political party.
 
posted by [identity profile] miss-s-b.livejournal.com at 10:15am on 12/06/2008
Parliament Act only applies to manifesto commitments, and this isn't one.

But yes, I would rather have an appointed second house than an elected one. For one thing, they don't have to worry about the bloodthirsty and ill educated electorate.
 
posted by [identity profile] makyo.livejournal.com at 11:28am on 12/06/2008
Actually, the Parliament Act can be used for any bill which (a) didn't originate in the Lords and (b) has been blocked by the Lords in two consecutive parliamentary sessions.

There's something called the Salisbury Convention, by which the Lords usually don't block legislation that was a manifesto commitment by the reigning party, however since the 2005 election the Conservatives and LibDems have stated that (due partly to low voter turnout and the 1999 reforms) they no longer consider themselves to be bound by it.
 
posted by [identity profile] sammywol.livejournal.com at 10:36am on 12/06/2008
Our Senate is a bizarre mix of elected, selective elected, and appointees and it is a largely futile mess - in spite of the principled efforts of a notable few. As the appointees are only there for one cycle they really don't work. If a good party lad gets dumped by his electorate he can rely on being a Senate appointee while he waits to get back in. Life peers are much more useful!
 
posted by [identity profile] bazzalisk.livejournal.com at 09:07am on 12/06/2008
The thing is ... I disagree with this move, but I see no reason to believe that a Tory government would be any better on this issue (which is to say detainment without trial, whether or not it gets extended to 42 days is frankly irrelevant). I do see every reason to believe that a Tory government would be worse on other issues, though.

A Lib-Dem government might be better -- but they don't seem able to decide whether they're Liberals or Social Democrats -- and their energy policy is laughable.

The fact is that there is *no* current party with sensible or even acceptable policies on everything in my opinion. Both the main parties have issues that if they are in power it gives a lot of say to certain influential members ... there are a lot of needlessly authoritarian people in New Labour, and there are people in the Tory party's upper echelons who think Margaret Thatcher's time was a golden age, as opposed to a horrible mistake which we still haven't recovered from economically. The Lib-Dems are two parties.

Of the minor parties the Greens are the best, but their environmental and energy policies are hopelessly reckless and stupid.

In a situation like this is it any wonder that voter turn-out is so low?
 
posted by [identity profile] a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com at 03:18pm on 12/06/2008
It's just moral and ethical bankruptcy across the board. Still, I'm not sure I wouldn't rather live anywhere in Europe than here ...

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