posted by
purplecthulhu at 08:37am on 11/02/2003
I said it was "provocative and unwise". As to "wrong"... I think there's a spectrum of wrongness, and Israel's actions by no means define the breadth of that spectrum.
Yes, there is a spectrum of wrongness. When terms like 'evil' get used we forget that there are scales of wrongness. The likely death of thousands of civilians in any attack on Iraq is wrong. And we should not forget that.
Because any resolutions blocked by the US on Israel have been of a radically different character than what's going on in the current situation. Israel does not routinely disregard Security Council resolutions calling on it to give up WMD obtained in violation of treaty, nor does it threaten the world's economy through attempting to gain control over critical resources by attacking other countries. It is willing to live in peace with its neighbors, and it does not make a habit of being one of the worst violators of human rights in the entire world -- if you think that Israel's human rights record, imperfect though it may be, is in the same league as Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Egypt, just to name a few examples, you are sadly mistaken.
Nobody has pushed for severe sanctions on Israel for various of its actions because they know there is no hope of getting them past the US. I'm unsure whether Israel has signed the non-proliferation treaty, but I am sure they have nuclear weapons, which would violate that treaty. Nobody has ever suggested that they should be disarmed because, again, they are protected by the US. There are numerous other countires with WMD, including Pakistan, India and South Africa, and probably North Korea now as well -and that's just the nuclear ones. Chemical and biological weapons are likely to be much more common. And yet the US is not going after any of these countires. Is there a double standard here? It might be claimed that there is not because Saddam has used chemical weapons on his own population. But that was in 1988, and the US was supporting Iraq at the time. Donald Rumsfeld was even in Baghdad at the time, as Reagan's special envoy to Iraq, and he refused to comment on the act. Why is that use now justification for attack while it was ignored at the time by the very same people?
[Arguments before congress]
And how does this make it incorrect? There are many places in the world where this conflict is seen in terms of power-politics, in terms of "what can we get out of it". Having these people twist the wording and meaning of previous UNSC resolutions is not only venal and shortsighted, but deeply offensive to anyone who believes in the ultimate goals of the United Nations.
And this goes to the heart of the matter. Why do you believe that those who interpret resolutions differently from the US are looking for what they can get while the US is not doing just the same thing? Yes, it is all about power politics, wherever these decisions are made. The US government is looking for a number of things. Securing oil supplies is one of them. But also, there's a lot of internal US politics going on here. Bush wants to look good for re-election. Being a war president will distract from the mess he's making of the economy (which is at least partly the war's fault!). Its also distracting people from domestic politics and allowing him to put extrteme fundamentalists into various positions of influence. For an example see here. And, above all, these distractions are keeping people away from the fact that he has no electoral mandate, and is only in power because of his father's friends in the Supreme Court. All the evidence suggests that he only won Florida because of widespread electoral malpractice. But if he's a war president, then it would be unpatriotic to say this.
While I have some respect for the folks over at CIA, their analysis may not be correct, nor will it hold true indefinitely. If the current situation were to go on for another year, and US forces backed off, would Saddam still find it hard to resist if someone made him a tempting offer? His current behavior casts doubt on him actually being a rational actor, and he also has a significant history of strategic miscalculation.
The CIA are not the only intelligence agency that thinks that Saddam will only use, or have his WMDs used if attacked. The British security services are so incensed at having these views ignored that they've leaked high level briefing documents to this effect. Meanwhile the best the prime minister can do by way of support for the US position is to plagiarise and doctor an old PhD thesis. The religious and political ideologies of Saddam and al Quaida are so far apart that they are unlikely to ever make him an offer. He is likely only to use them if he sees himself falling in the immediate future. Removing the invading force from his borders will remove that threat, and make us all safer while the inspectors actually get the job done and disarm him as much as possible.
Yes, there is a spectrum of wrongness. When terms like 'evil' get used we forget that there are scales of wrongness. The likely death of thousands of civilians in any attack on Iraq is wrong. And we should not forget that.
Because any resolutions blocked by the US on Israel have been of a radically different character than what's going on in the current situation. Israel does not routinely disregard Security Council resolutions calling on it to give up WMD obtained in violation of treaty, nor does it threaten the world's economy through attempting to gain control over critical resources by attacking other countries. It is willing to live in peace with its neighbors, and it does not make a habit of being one of the worst violators of human rights in the entire world -- if you think that Israel's human rights record, imperfect though it may be, is in the same league as Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Egypt, just to name a few examples, you are sadly mistaken.
Nobody has pushed for severe sanctions on Israel for various of its actions because they know there is no hope of getting them past the US. I'm unsure whether Israel has signed the non-proliferation treaty, but I am sure they have nuclear weapons, which would violate that treaty. Nobody has ever suggested that they should be disarmed because, again, they are protected by the US. There are numerous other countires with WMD, including Pakistan, India and South Africa, and probably North Korea now as well -and that's just the nuclear ones. Chemical and biological weapons are likely to be much more common. And yet the US is not going after any of these countires. Is there a double standard here? It might be claimed that there is not because Saddam has used chemical weapons on his own population. But that was in 1988, and the US was supporting Iraq at the time. Donald Rumsfeld was even in Baghdad at the time, as Reagan's special envoy to Iraq, and he refused to comment on the act. Why is that use now justification for attack while it was ignored at the time by the very same people?
[Arguments before congress]
And how does this make it incorrect? There are many places in the world where this conflict is seen in terms of power-politics, in terms of "what can we get out of it". Having these people twist the wording and meaning of previous UNSC resolutions is not only venal and shortsighted, but deeply offensive to anyone who believes in the ultimate goals of the United Nations.
And this goes to the heart of the matter. Why do you believe that those who interpret resolutions differently from the US are looking for what they can get while the US is not doing just the same thing? Yes, it is all about power politics, wherever these decisions are made. The US government is looking for a number of things. Securing oil supplies is one of them. But also, there's a lot of internal US politics going on here. Bush wants to look good for re-election. Being a war president will distract from the mess he's making of the economy (which is at least partly the war's fault!). Its also distracting people from domestic politics and allowing him to put extrteme fundamentalists into various positions of influence. For an example see here. And, above all, these distractions are keeping people away from the fact that he has no electoral mandate, and is only in power because of his father's friends in the Supreme Court. All the evidence suggests that he only won Florida because of widespread electoral malpractice. But if he's a war president, then it would be unpatriotic to say this.
While I have some respect for the folks over at CIA, their analysis may not be correct, nor will it hold true indefinitely. If the current situation were to go on for another year, and US forces backed off, would Saddam still find it hard to resist if someone made him a tempting offer? His current behavior casts doubt on him actually being a rational actor, and he also has a significant history of strategic miscalculation.
The CIA are not the only intelligence agency that thinks that Saddam will only use, or have his WMDs used if attacked. The British security services are so incensed at having these views ignored that they've leaked high level briefing documents to this effect. Meanwhile the best the prime minister can do by way of support for the US position is to plagiarise and doctor an old PhD thesis. The religious and political ideologies of Saddam and al Quaida are so far apart that they are unlikely to ever make him an offer. He is likely only to use them if he sees himself falling in the immediate future. Removing the invading force from his borders will remove that threat, and make us all safer while the inspectors actually get the job done and disarm him as much as possible.
(no subject)
Not in my name. Glasgow, 15th February.
(no subject)
Au contraire. There are any number of significant figures high up in Saddam's security apparatus that could stage a coup, and then imediately implement the Security Council resolutions. It's risky, to be sure... but if we don't hold their feet to the fire now, they'll never make any changes.
(no subject)
This theory could explain a lot!
Re:
You convince people that you've gotten rid of your WMD stockpiles by, first, admitting to the weapons you had, and second, telling what you did with them and providing evidence to back up your claim. Come out and say, "We had X liters of anthrax, Z liters of aflatoxin, Q liters of botulinim, etc. We got rid of it on thus-and-such date at thus-and-so place; here are films, and here's the residues to be tested. Here's the names of everyone involved with the program; talk to them at your whim. Here's where we hid the production facility, and here's all our records. Here are the mobile labs we acquired; we'll be demolishing them at a time and place of your choosing. If you find anything we've left out, I'll answer for it personally at The Hague; we'll keep you posted of any errors or changes."
It requires a degree of openness that the Iraqi regime is, in my opinion, structurally incapable of providing. That degree of openness would be, in the long run, fatal to everyone involved, as their misdeeds would be traced to them.
(no subject)
Is a war that will undoubtedly kill hundreds of Iraqi civilians, and, according to Oxfam, precipitate a major humanitarian crisis in the area, the best way to help the Iraqi people free themselves from Saddam's dictatorship? This seems too much like "in order to save the village, it was necessary to destroy the village". In any case, I am not persuaded that the Bush administration is entering into this war in order to free the Iraqi people, who are not noticeably more oppressed now than at any point in the last twelve years. The war appears to fit an American political timetable, rather than any set by Saddam Hussein's actions.
It requires a degree of openness that the Iraqi regime is, in my opinion, structurally incapable of providing. That degree of openness would be, in the long run, fatal to everyone involved, as their misdeeds would be traced to them.
So in fact there is nothing any Iraqi can do to prevent the war.
(no subject)
It's also naive. Military dictatorships don't work like that. Did anyone overthrow Hitler until the Russians were in Berlin? No, despite the fact that it had been obvious that the war was lost for at least ten months beforehand. Military dictators have too tight a grip on power, and trying to persuade "reasonable" elements within their organization to stage a coup is a pipe dream.
(no subject)
Of course, no US backed dictator would have nasty WMDs, so we could believe him when he said he had none!
Re:
It's also naive. Military dictatorships don't work like that. Did anyone overthrow Hitler until the Russians were in Berlin? No, despite the fact that it had been obvious that the war was lost for at least ten months beforehand. Military dictators have too tight a grip on power, and trying to persuade "reasonable" elements within their organization to stage a coup is a pipe dream.
What happened to Benito Mussolini, then? Also, may I point out that there was an assassination attempt on Adolf Hitler in 1944? There are any number of banana-republic cases, too, although none of them gave particularly stable results.
(no subject)
And I don't see how the Stauffenberg plot is a convincing argument, as it failed, not just because the bomb did not kill Hitler, but because the plotters were incompetents with no real support in the German military hierarchy.
(no subject)
(no subject)
However, in terms of practical politics, anyone senior enough in Iraq to hope that they would survive a successful coup is unlikely to trust that the US won't just attack Iraq anyway....
(no subject)
(although, perhaps you could deploy some lj-cuts?)
(no subject)
(no subject)
What many of us who believe in the ultimate goals of the United Nations find deeply offensive is the idea that the United States is free to ignore decisions of the Security Council if they don't go the way it wants, i.e. if the Security Council decides, according to its mechanisms, that there has not been a material breach of Resolution 1441, and/or not to pass a further resolution sanctioning the use of force, George Bush reserves the right to attack anyway.
(no subject)
Reassure us that truly effective measures can and will be taken, because the past certainly argues differently. Reassure us that you're serious, and that you're deeply committed to our security as well as your own -- we've shown how much we care for yours in two World Wars and in the Cold War; it's your turn now. Show us that a body which can place Libya at the head of its Human Rights commission can also meet our concerns and needs, because we're deeply dubious.
We're waiting.
(no subject)
But are you seriously suggesting that the UNSC is there just to protect US interests? Isn't it there to act in the world's interests? And who can properly assess those? Shouldn't it be the nations of the world, rather than one nation, albeit a powerful one? Isn't the whole point of the UN that powerful nations don't get to do what they want against the wishes and interests of smaller ones?
(no subject)
Of course, those of us against the war care about the security of America - but we do not believe that this is the best way of ensuring it. Europeans are of course grateful for the sacrifice of America in the World Wars, but that does not give you the right to treat us as your puppets.
And reassurance works both ways. The Bush administration has put very little effort into winning over the hearts and minds of those who doubt its motives. Reassure us that this is not a war for oil. Reassure us that it is not an attempt to distract the American people from a socially regressive domestic policy and a mishandled economy. Reassure us that george Bush cares in the slightest for the peopl of Iraq, or Palestine, or France.
We too are waiting.
*If you mean the United States', why should the UN's charter solely support American interests?
(no subject)
(no subject)
Otherwise, yes.
(no subject)
Good! - but, as you imply, there are numerous other likely or definite nuclear and chem/bio states that the US is not trying to go to war with.
Yes, but ...
Iraq isn't cooperating (the only reason the inspectors are there at all is b/c the USA basically threatened Iraq with war). The inspectors have an impossible job.
Re: Yes, but ...
And why, if it's so important that Iraq disarm, did it take the Bush administration over eighteen months to turn its attention to the issue?
My own theory (and one held by others) is that Bush expected Iraq to refuse the inspectors in late 2002, and this would then give him his instant pretext for all-out military action. Saddam called his bluff. The Iraqi dictator is playing for time, no-one denies that - but given the impression the US has projected, that war is inevitable whatever Saddam does, it's not surprising that he is unco-operative. If someone told you they were going to beat you up, would you hand over your knuckleduster first?
(no subject)
Having looked at the original comment to which
(no subject)
Unless I miss my guess, that is.
Crazy(the nitpicking)Soph
(no subject)
After discussion, I've copied that post into my LJ.
(no subject)