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posted by [personal profile] purplecthulhu at 08:37am on 11/02/2003
I said it was "provocative and unwise". As to "wrong"... I think there's a spectrum of wrongness, and Israel's actions by no means define the breadth of that spectrum.

Yes, there is a spectrum of wrongness. When terms like 'evil' get used we forget that there are scales of wrongness. The likely death of thousands of civilians in any attack on Iraq is wrong. And we should not forget that.

Because any resolutions blocked by the US on Israel have been of a radically different character than what's going on in the current situation. Israel does not routinely disregard Security Council resolutions calling on it to give up WMD obtained in violation of treaty, nor does it threaten the world's economy through attempting to gain control over critical resources by attacking other countries. It is willing to live in peace with its neighbors, and it does not make a habit of being one of the worst violators of human rights in the entire world -- if you think that Israel's human rights record, imperfect though it may be, is in the same league as Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Egypt, just to name a few examples, you are sadly mistaken.

Nobody has pushed for severe sanctions on Israel for various of its actions because they know there is no hope of getting them past the US. I'm unsure whether Israel has signed the non-proliferation treaty, but I am sure they have nuclear weapons, which would violate that treaty. Nobody has ever suggested that they should be disarmed because, again, they are protected by the US. There are numerous other countires with WMD, including Pakistan, India and South Africa, and probably North Korea now as well -and that's just the nuclear ones. Chemical and biological weapons are likely to be much more common. And yet the US is not going after any of these countires. Is there a double standard here? It might be claimed that there is not because Saddam has used chemical weapons on his own population. But that was in 1988, and the US was supporting Iraq at the time. Donald Rumsfeld was even in Baghdad at the time, as Reagan's special envoy to Iraq, and he refused to comment on the act. Why is that use now justification for attack while it was ignored at the time by the very same people?

[Arguments before congress]

And how does this make it incorrect? There are many places in the world where this conflict is seen in terms of power-politics, in terms of "what can we get out of it". Having these people twist the wording and meaning of previous UNSC resolutions is not only venal and shortsighted, but deeply offensive to anyone who believes in the ultimate goals of the United Nations.

And this goes to the heart of the matter. Why do you believe that those who interpret resolutions differently from the US are looking for what they can get while the US is not doing just the same thing? Yes, it is all about power politics, wherever these decisions are made. The US government is looking for a number of things. Securing oil supplies is one of them. But also, there's a lot of internal US politics going on here. Bush wants to look good for re-election. Being a war president will distract from the mess he's making of the economy (which is at least partly the war's fault!). Its also distracting people from domestic politics and allowing him to put extrteme fundamentalists into various positions of influence. For an example see here. And, above all, these distractions are keeping people away from the fact that he has no electoral mandate, and is only in power because of his father's friends in the Supreme Court. All the evidence suggests that he only won Florida because of widespread electoral malpractice. But if he's a war president, then it would be unpatriotic to say this.

While I have some respect for the folks over at CIA, their analysis may not be correct, nor will it hold true indefinitely. If the current situation were to go on for another year, and US forces backed off, would Saddam still find it hard to resist if someone made him a tempting offer? His current behavior casts doubt on him actually being a rational actor, and he also has a significant history of strategic miscalculation.

The CIA are not the only intelligence agency that thinks that Saddam will only use, or have his WMDs used if attacked. The British security services are so incensed at having these views ignored that they've leaked high level briefing documents to this effect. Meanwhile the best the prime minister can do by way of support for the US position is to plagiarise and doctor an old PhD thesis. The religious and political ideologies of Saddam and al Quaida are so far apart that they are unlikely to ever make him an offer. He is likely only to use them if he sees himself falling in the immediate future. Removing the invading force from his borders will remove that threat, and make us all safer while the inspectors actually get the job done and disarm him as much as possible.
Music:: The today Program
Mood:: 'angry' angry
There are 26 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com at 01:13am on 11/02/2003
What seems so peculiarly horrible this time around is that it's evident that there is nothing any Iraqi can do to prevent war - from the children dying from the sanctions to Saddam Hussein. Yet over and over again we hear from Blair and Bush that Hussein is pushing us to war.

Not in my name. Glasgow, 15th February.
 
posted by [identity profile] curiousangel.livejournal.com at 07:24am on 11/02/2003
What seems so peculiarly horrible this time around is that it's evident that there is nothing any Iraqi can do to prevent war

Au contraire. There are any number of significant figures high up in Saddam's security apparatus that could stage a coup, and then imediately implement the Security Council resolutions. It's risky, to be sure... but if we don't hold their feet to the fire now, they'll never make any changes.
 
posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 07:56am on 11/02/2003
This may be only a minor point, but they will innevitably have to make changes when Saddam dies, be it of natural or unnatural causes. Unless, of course, this has already happened, and Iraq is now on autopilot with none of the 6 doubles wandering the country knowing which is the real one...

This theory could explain a lot!
(deleted comment)
 

Re:

posted by [identity profile] curiousangel.livejournal.com at 08:15am on 11/02/2003
It's one way of suggesting how a war could be avoided. I certainly wouldn't recommend it, as it doesn't serve anyone's goals in the long run, nor would it provide a long term solution to the problems in Iraq... but it's about the only way I can think of for there not to be a war. At this point, I fear that a war is the only way to clear much of the current structure away from Iraq, and it is that structure that is holding its people hostage.

You convince people that you've gotten rid of your WMD stockpiles by, first, admitting to the weapons you had, and second, telling what you did with them and providing evidence to back up your claim. Come out and say, "We had X liters of anthrax, Z liters of aflatoxin, Q liters of botulinim, etc. We got rid of it on thus-and-such date at thus-and-so place; here are films, and here's the residues to be tested. Here's the names of everyone involved with the program; talk to them at your whim. Here's where we hid the production facility, and here's all our records. Here are the mobile labs we acquired; we'll be demolishing them at a time and place of your choosing. If you find anything we've left out, I'll answer for it personally at The Hague; we'll keep you posted of any errors or changes."

It requires a degree of openness that the Iraqi regime is, in my opinion, structurally incapable of providing. That degree of openness would be, in the long run, fatal to everyone involved, as their misdeeds would be traced to them.
 
posted by [identity profile] swisstone.livejournal.com at 08:49am on 11/02/2003
At this point, I fear that a war is the only way to clear much of the current structure away from Iraq, and it is that structure that is holding its people hostage.

Is a war that will undoubtedly kill hundreds of Iraqi civilians, and, according to Oxfam, precipitate a major humanitarian crisis in the area, the best way to help the Iraqi people free themselves from Saddam's dictatorship? This seems too much like "in order to save the village, it was necessary to destroy the village". In any case, I am not persuaded that the Bush administration is entering into this war in order to free the Iraqi people, who are not noticeably more oppressed now than at any point in the last twelve years. The war appears to fit an American political timetable, rather than any set by Saddam Hussein's actions.

It requires a degree of openness that the Iraqi regime is, in my opinion, structurally incapable of providing. That degree of openness would be, in the long run, fatal to everyone involved, as their misdeeds would be traced to them.

So in fact there is nothing any Iraqi can do to prevent the war.
 
posted by [identity profile] swisstone.livejournal.com at 08:04am on 11/02/2003
This looks alarmingly like suggesting replacing an anti-American military dictatorship with a pro-American (or at least "co-operative") military dictatorship. How does this equate with the supposed concern for the Iraqi people? And how could (say) Tariq Aziz show to the Bush administration's satisfaction that Iraq has no weapons of mass destruction, if in fact the supposed large stockpiles don't actually exist?

It's also naive. Military dictatorships don't work like that. Did anyone overthrow Hitler until the Russians were in Berlin? No, despite the fact that it had been obvious that the war was lost for at least ten months beforehand. Military dictators have too tight a grip on power, and trying to persuade "reasonable" elements within their organization to stage a coup is a pipe dream.
 
posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 08:11am on 11/02/2003
There's a long US tradition of 'a US backed human-rights abusing dictator is better than one backed by someone else' - look at Chile under Pinochet for example. Democracy is all fine and good as long as the people make the right choice, as far as the US is concerned (of course the US is not unique in this - see Hungary under Dubcek). But one had hoped that those days were past. Sadly, in Bush's headlong dash back in time, we seem to be headed for those same bad tendencies of the 60s and 70s again...

Of course, no US backed dictator would have nasty WMDs, so we could believe him when he said he had none!
 

Re:

posted by [identity profile] curiousangel.livejournal.com at 08:19am on 11/02/2003
I'm guessing you edited your comment to add the second paragraph -- I'll answer it now.

It's also naive. Military dictatorships don't work like that. Did anyone overthrow Hitler until the Russians were in Berlin? No, despite the fact that it had been obvious that the war was lost for at least ten months beforehand. Military dictators have too tight a grip on power, and trying to persuade "reasonable" elements within their organization to stage a coup is a pipe dream.

What happened to Benito Mussolini, then? Also, may I point out that there was an assassination attempt on Adolf Hitler in 1944? There are any number of banana-republic cases, too, although none of them gave particularly stable results.
 
posted by [identity profile] swisstone.livejournal.com at 08:54am on 11/02/2003
Mussolini's problem was that he did not have a secure enough grip on power. There remained constitutional mechanisms (principally, the King) that could remove him. In any case, this came only after several years of war, and did not lead to Italy's immediate freedom, but to it's occupation by a German military government.

And I don't see how the Stauffenberg plot is a convincing argument, as it failed, not just because the bomb did not kill Hitler, but because the plotters were incompetents with no real support in the German military hierarchy.
 
posted by [identity profile] curiousangel.livejournal.com at 09:48am on 11/02/2003
They was the first two examples I could come up with off the top of my head. There obviously is no direct parallel with the current situation, and as I've stated elsewhere, I don't think the situation is likely to come about.
 
posted by [identity profile] yonmei.livejournal.com at 08:17am on 11/02/2003
True, in theory: as, in theory, the American people could rise to depose the President appointed by the Supreme Court against the will of the electorate, and his team of oil-industry fatcats, before they lead the US into an illegal war.

However, in terms of practical politics, anyone senior enough in Iraq to hope that they would survive a successful coup is unlikely to trust that the US won't just attack Iraq anyway....
 
posted by [identity profile] purpletigron.livejournal.com at 01:28am on 11/02/2003
Ob AOL.

(although, perhaps you could deploy some lj-cuts?)
 
posted by [identity profile] curiousangel.livejournal.com at 07:27am on 11/02/2003
Speaking in his defense, this was carried over from a previous discussion in [livejournal.com profile] rosefox's journal, and we were getting too long for the "reply-to" to work properly. Not to say that an lj-cut wouldn't have worked, but this also broadens the discussion by bringing in other voices.
 
posted by [identity profile] swisstone.livejournal.com at 01:43am on 11/02/2003
Having these people twist the wording and meaning of previous UNSC resolutions is not only venal and shortsighted, but deeply offensive to anyone who believes in the ultimate goals of the United Nations.

What many of us who believe in the ultimate goals of the United Nations find deeply offensive is the idea that the United States is free to ignore decisions of the Security Council if they don't go the way it wants, i.e. if the Security Council decides, according to its mechanisms, that there has not been a material breach of Resolution 1441, and/or not to pass a further resolution sanctioning the use of force, George Bush reserves the right to attack anyway.
 
posted by [identity profile] curiousangel.livejournal.com at 10:04am on 11/02/2003
If the Security Council ever intends to act to solve a problem, it should do so now. There have been so many resolutions that have been wantonly ignored and so many Council members who act out of shortsighted anti-Americanism, that it is becoming obvious that the UNSC is a dead letter. The US perceives that its interests are being acted against, and that the UNSC will not stop it, contrary to the goals envisioned when the UN was created.

Reassure us that truly effective measures can and will be taken, because the past certainly argues differently. Reassure us that you're serious, and that you're deeply committed to our security as well as your own -- we've shown how much we care for yours in two World Wars and in the Cold War; it's your turn now. Show us that a body which can place Libya at the head of its Human Rights commission can also meet our concerns and needs, because we're deeply dubious.

We're waiting.
 
posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 10:54am on 11/02/2003
As we've said before (somewhere, not sure if its here) Security Council resolutions are regularly ignored. Its a fact of diplomatic life, and the US is just as guilty as anyone else.

But are you seriously suggesting that the UNSC is there just to protect US interests? Isn't it there to act in the world's interests? And who can properly assess those? Shouldn't it be the nations of the world, rather than one nation, albeit a powerful one? Isn't the whole point of the UN that powerful nations don't get to do what they want against the wishes and interests of smaller ones?
 
posted by [identity profile] swisstone.livejournal.com at 12:17pm on 11/02/2003
Are you accusing the French of "short-sighted anti-Americanism"? Or does "anti-Americanism" simply mean "not letting the US have its own way"? And assuming by "its interests" you mean the UN's,* what gives the US the right to take decisions on the UN's behalf? If the Bush administration is truly committed to the ideals of the United Nations (and given Bush's promises in his election campaign to reduce America's commitments to overseas peacekeeping, I have my doubts), then it must accept the current mechanism, flawed though they might be, and that it will not always get its own way. Otherwise, Bush is dishonestly trying to cloak acting on US interests alone under spurious international legitimacy for which he cares nothing.

Of course, those of us against the war care about the security of America - but we do not believe that this is the best way of ensuring it. Europeans are of course grateful for the sacrifice of America in the World Wars, but that does not give you the right to treat us as your puppets.

And reassurance works both ways. The Bush administration has put very little effort into winning over the hearts and minds of those who doubt its motives. Reassure us that this is not a war for oil. Reassure us that it is not an attempt to distract the American people from a socially regressive domestic policy and a mishandled economy. Reassure us that george Bush cares in the slightest for the peopl of Iraq, or Palestine, or France.

We too are waiting.

*If you mean the United States', why should the UN's charter solely support American interests?
 
posted by [identity profile] swisstone.livejournal.com at 07:34am on 12/02/2003
On the subject of the US commitment to the UK's security, Rod Liddle has an interesting piece in The Guardian on how America has worked with us over the last twenty years, demonstrating its commitment to British security by, e.g., not outlawing NORAID.
 
posted by [identity profile] papersky.livejournal.com at 05:03am on 11/02/2003
Department of not spoiling ship for a happorth of tar: South Africa gave up its nuclear capability, in a documented and inspected way, a little while ago. I haven't seen any evidence or even rumours that this isn't the case.

Otherwise, yes.
 
posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 05:52am on 11/02/2003
Thanks - I wasn't aware of that.

Good! - but, as you imply, there are numerous other likely or definite nuclear and chem/bio states that the US is not trying to go to war with.
 
posted by [identity profile] overconvergent.livejournal.com at 09:13am on 11/02/2003
the difference between S Africa and Iraq is that S Africa *cooperated* with the inspectors.

Iraq isn't cooperating (the only reason the inspectors are there at all is b/c the USA basically threatened Iraq with war). The inspectors have an impossible job.
 
posted by [identity profile] swisstone.livejournal.com at 09:33am on 11/02/2003
And the only reason they weren't there between 1999 and 2002 was that Iraq had refused them readmittance after a three-day bombing campaign (or rather intensification of the bombing campaign) by the US & UK. This after Iraq had objected to them on the grounds that they included spies for the US (an accusation that later turned out to be true).

And why, if it's so important that Iraq disarm, did it take the Bush administration over eighteen months to turn its attention to the issue?

My own theory (and one held by others) is that Bush expected Iraq to refuse the inspectors in late 2002, and this would then give him his instant pretext for all-out military action. Saddam called his bluff. The Iraqi dictator is playing for time, no-one denies that - but given the impression the US has projected, that war is inevitable whatever Saddam does, it's not surprising that he is unco-operative. If someone told you they were going to beat you up, would you hand over your knuckleduster first?
 
posted by [identity profile] swisstone.livejournal.com at 07:56am on 11/02/2003
[livejournal.com profile] curiousangel: Because any resolutions blocked by the US on Israel have been of a radically different character than what's going on in the current situation.

Having looked at the original comment to which [livejournal.com profile] purplecthulhu was replying, CA seems to have missed PC's point. The nature of the blocked resolutions is not the issue. The question being asked is why should the US be happy to exercise its own veto, yet getting huffy about anyone else doing so.
 
posted by [identity profile] crazysoph.livejournal.com at 09:31am on 11/02/2003
Only tangental to the content here - did you realize, [livejournal.com profile] purplecthulu, that you sent [livejournal.com profile] curiousangel to a locked post?

Unless I miss my guess, that is.

Crazy(the nitpicking)Soph
 
posted by [identity profile] purplecthulhu.livejournal.com at 10:11am on 11/02/2003
You're absolutely right! Apologies!

After discussion, I've copied that post into my LJ. [livejournal.com profile] purpletigron was concerned about pro-life hate mail which is why it was friends only, but I don't care :-) The link should now work for everyone.
 
posted by [identity profile] curiousangel.livejournal.com at 09:45am on 11/02/2003
OK, I tried and tried to cut my response down short enough to fit, but it's just not happening. If you can think of a way to split the discussion into chunks, I'll happliy go along, but I had to put my response here (http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=curiousangel&itemid=36956#cutid1).

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